Comments on: Open formats are the only way to guarantee an open web http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/ Where the urethane hits the pavement Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:57:42 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Robin 'Roblimo' Miller http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18868 Robin 'Roblimo' Miller Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:35:16 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18868 "The next time linux.com post a link to mp3 content that they produced and not have a Vorbis link associated with it I hope people take them to task." Don't worry, they do, usually rudely and loudly. And then there's the deaf guy who demands transcripts of every podcast we do. Message received. We must double our cost on every podcast to make tiny bits of our audience happy, so we must only do podcasts on hugely popular topics or simply not do them at all. “The next time linux.com post a link to mp3 content that they produced and not have a Vorbis link associated with it I hope people take them to task.”

Don’t worry, they do, usually rudely and loudly. And then there’s the deaf guy who demands transcripts of every podcast we do.

Message received. We must double our cost on every podcast to make tiny bits of our audience happy, so we must only do podcasts on hugely popular topics or simply not do them at all.

]]> By: Monty http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18860 Monty Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:54:08 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18860 "Ogg Theora is just On2’s VP3 codec, which is ancient and only comparable to MPEG-1’s quality. While that may be “good enough” for you, it is not good enough for the big content providers which want to provide HD content (and could easily argue “not good enough” for even pre-HD content)." More incorrect statements than there are sentences! "Ogg Theora is just On2’s VP3 codec" No, it is built from it. The formats have diverged in some significant ways. "and only comparable to MPEG-1’s quality." Bet two cases of good Lambic on that, name a neutral arena, and you're on. Your weapon can be any MPEG1 encoder, mine will be our Theora encoder. Bring the beer with you, you won't be leaving with it. " “not good enough” for even pre-HD content)." you. tube. FLV is the most dominant format on the web today. That hardly bodes badly for Theora. But you're right the old encoder is inefficient. That's why we've built another. See http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo.html if you think I'm deluded and believe the current Theora can do no wrong. “Ogg Theora is just On2’s VP3 codec, which is ancient and only comparable to MPEG-1’s quality. While that may be “good enough” for you, it is not good enough for the big content providers which want to provide HD content (and could easily argue “not good enough” for even pre-HD content).”

More incorrect statements than there are sentences!

“Ogg Theora is just On2’s VP3 codec”

No, it is built from it. The formats have diverged in some significant ways.

“and only comparable to MPEG-1’s quality.”

Bet two cases of good Lambic on that, name a neutral arena, and you’re on. Your weapon can be any MPEG1 encoder, mine will be our Theora encoder. Bring the beer with you, you won’t be leaving with it.

” “not good enough” for even pre-HD content).”

you.
tube.

FLV is the most dominant format on the web today. That hardly bodes badly for Theora.

But you’re right the old encoder is inefficient. That’s why we’ve built another.
See http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo.html if you think I’m deluded and believe the current Theora can do no wrong.

]]> By: Christian http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18858 Christian Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:58 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18858 @Jeff: Dude we are having this the discussion in the context of built-in browser support for Ogg formats. If your browser support Ogg you don't need a separate download. @Jeff: Dude we are having this the discussion in the context of built-in browser support for Ogg formats. If your browser support Ogg you don’t need a separate download.

]]> By: Vide http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18857 Vide Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:11:56 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18857 @Eugenia, Roland and all the rest praising video quality: HD *sucks*. I mean, HD is simply a marketing buzzword, or for video-quality aficionados. The "dumb mass", which we always refer to when arguing about anything that's going to be widespreaded, just likes DVD quality. In many fields in technology we've reached the "it's just enough" point, where a better quality doesn't matter because it couldn't be appreciated. There are millions of people listening to their crappy mp3 in their crappy player, and there are thousands of audiophiles screaming because of this. The same applies to video encoding, and you're on the audiophile's side. @Eugenia, Roland and all the rest praising video quality:
HD *sucks*. I mean, HD is simply a marketing buzzword, or for video-quality aficionados. The “dumb mass”, which we always refer to when arguing about anything that’s going to be widespreaded, just likes DVD quality. In many fields in technology we’ve reached the “it’s just enough” point, where a better quality doesn’t matter because it couldn’t be appreciated. There are millions of people listening to their crappy mp3 in their crappy player, and there are thousands of audiophiles screaming because of this. The same applies to video encoding, and you’re on the audiophile’s side.

]]> By: Luya Tshimbalanga http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18856 Luya Tshimbalanga Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:51:48 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18856 Think about a long term approach. With the project like OLPC, using an uncumbered patented format/codecs is a good alternative. What some posters kept forgetting is Theora is another open format when videophiles and other developers are welcome to participate to the development. One has complained about the use of outdated codecs On2's VP3 but for the mass public, it is not very important. Let's face it, having a high quality video rendering will require more CPU process. As the OLPC started to seed on some developing countries such as Uruguay, Peru, Brazil, having a decent quality of video will be enough. The real problem is the maintain of status quo for several industries unwilling to get involved in a format like Theora. I think having an open format as mandatory wil greatly bring innovations. We need to think not only in the industrial view but also worldwide. So far Theora is the suitable solution. Think about a long term approach. With the project like OLPC, using an uncumbered patented format/codecs is a good alternative. What some posters kept forgetting is Theora is another open format when videophiles and other developers are welcome to participate to the development.

One has complained about the use of outdated codecs On2’s VP3 but for the mass public, it is not very important. Let’s face it, having a high quality video rendering will require more CPU process. As the OLPC started to seed on some developing countries such as Uruguay, Peru, Brazil, having a decent quality of video will be enough.

The real problem is the maintain of status quo for several industries unwilling to get involved in a format like Theora. I think having an open format as mandatory wil greatly bring innovations. We need to think not only in the industrial view but also worldwide. So far Theora is the suitable solution.

]]> By: dave http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18855 dave Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:26:01 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18855 I'm frankly appalled by the negativity here. I just wanted to echo J5 in saying that anyone savvy enough to be reading this blog should be publishing their video in Theora, and encouraging Gnome developers to do their screencasts etc. in the same way, embedding them as with HTML5 video tags. Your users can already get Firefox and Opera builds with support, Safari nightlies work with the XiphQT codec plugin. The VLC plugin works for other situations and Java is a fallback if you use the mv_embed javascript: http://metavid.ucsc.edu/blog/2007/06/07/html5-video-the-future-is-now/ If there are problems, whether it's creating, editing, subtitling, streaming or whatever then we, the technically capable, need to be finding them and fixing them. This isn't about technology, it's about free culture and there's nothing other than Ogg Theora/Vorbis that comes close to fitting the bill. Some more info on Theora progress: http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo.html I’m frankly appalled by the negativity here.

I just wanted to echo J5 in saying that anyone savvy enough to be reading this blog should be publishing their video in Theora, and encouraging Gnome developers to do their screencasts etc. in the same way, embedding them as with HTML5 video tags.

Your users can already get Firefox and Opera builds with support, Safari nightlies work with the XiphQT codec plugin. The VLC plugin works for other situations and Java is a fallback if you use the mv_embed javascript:

http://metavid.ucsc.edu/blog/2007/06/07/html5-video-the-future-is-now/

If there are problems, whether it’s creating, editing, subtitling, streaming or whatever then we, the technically capable, need to be finding them and fixing them.

This isn’t about technology, it’s about free culture and there’s nothing other than Ogg Theora/Vorbis that comes close to fitting the bill.

Some more info on Theora progress:

http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo.html

]]> By: Jeff http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18854 Jeff Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:06:50 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18854 > Content creators will use Theora if they know that > by making content available in Theora they will be > able to reach a high percentage of web users out > there, without needing an extra download. Except that this isn't true... not many currently existing players (used outside of the Free SOftware community) actually support Ogg Theora. Ogg Vorbis is far better supported out there and even it isn't as widespread as it needs to be. So this argument is bunk. > Content creators will use Theora if they know that > by making content available in Theora they will be > able to reach a high percentage of web users out
> there, without needing an extra download.

Except that this isn’t true… not many currently existing players (used outside of the Free SOftware community) actually support Ogg Theora.

Ogg Vorbis is far better supported out there and even it isn’t as widespread as it needs to be.

So this argument is bunk.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18853 Jeff Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:04:05 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18853 Onkar: Ogg Theora is just On2's VP3 codec, which is ancient and only comparable to MPEG-1's quality. While that may be "good enough" for you, it is not good enough for the big content providers which want to provide HD content (and could easily argue "not good enough" for even pre-HD content). Onkar: Ogg Theora is just On2’s VP3 codec, which is ancient and only comparable to MPEG-1’s quality. While that may be “good enough” for you, it is not good enough for the big content providers which want to provide HD content (and could easily argue “not good enough” for even pre-HD content).

]]> By: Christian http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18852 Christian Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:58:38 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18852 Alex, that is not correct. There is nothing hindering you from encapsulating an open format in DRM. And the legal situation around it would be no different than any other DRM'ed media. Alex, that is not correct. There is nothing hindering you from encapsulating an open format in DRM. And the legal situation around it would be no different than any other DRM’ed media.

]]> By: alex http://www.j5live.com/2007/12/11/open-formats-are-the-only-way-to-guarantee-an-open-web/comment-page-1/#comment-18851 alex Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:33:20 +0000 http://www.j5live.com/?p=421#comment-18851 Putting a format where you have to pay license fees to use it in a standard is NOT the right thing. Theora might be crappy as hell. I don't care. If there is no fee-free alternative it should go in the standard. The industrie might as well go ahead and create an really open format themselves and put it in. But here is the point: You can't have an open format with DRM. If the format is open who hinders me from working around the DRM? The result is as long as they want DRM in the standard they won't allow an open format. Regardless of the quality. Putting a format where you have to pay license fees to use it in a standard is NOT the right thing. Theora might be crappy as hell. I don’t care. If there is no fee-free alternative it should go in the standard. The industrie might as well go ahead and create an really open format themselves and put it in.

But here is the point: You can’t have an open format with DRM. If the format is open who hinders me from working around the DRM? The result is as long as they want DRM in the standard they won’t allow an open format. Regardless of the quality.

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