I love how you try to insult me by saying I am a Liberal. Many people wear that banner proud though I am more center left than anything. People who have no real thought process often retort to name calling though.

Now the Afghanistan war is something I can understand even though I think war is an extreme last resort. In the Iraq war we went in on false pretenses when all options were not exhausted yet and no plans on how to secure the country once we ousted Saddam. Opening up wars on two fronts did a couple of things. First we made ourselves even more hated in the world, second the spotlight was thrown away from Afghanistan where we are doing a much better job but also may have caused the efforts in Afghanistan to not get the resources they need. Also it gave Iran and North Korea the ability to start enriching uranium with impunity. While the US is at war on two fronts and the world hates us they feel they can do anything they want. We are distracted with no end in sight. This all leads to us being less safe.

Now do I advocate pulling the troops out? No. Do I support Cindy Sheehan’s right to protest and some of her ideals? Yes to both counts. I only used her as an example because she was in the news that day. You see, the world isn’t black and white. There a nuances. I think we never should have gone into Iraq. At least at this point in time. But now that we are in there we need to have an end game that ensures the country can stand on its own.

Anyway, my argument wasn’t about that. It was about the eroding of our civil liberties and the power grabs going on within the Federal government.

Although the operation in Iraq may have been for the wrong reasons, it is part of a larger effort against terrorism and can be justified in the end. Also, I don’t know how you can say it was a tax break for the rich when everyone got a tax break. Seems pretty fair to me!

Your explanation clarifies very well what your concern was: the automatic “domestic disaster” could well be a problem. What I’m not clear about is… wouldn’t the states (or the fed. government) have to declare a “domestic disaster” anyway?

This would save time, while keeping control in the hands of the civil authorities.

Or Bush is seriously considering setting a series of parameters to say “when A, B and C happen it’s a domestic disaster”? That would be ludicrous… some things cannot be automatic (even in italy the army is always _called_ to help. They can’t decide to do on their own… except for the Carabiniers, of course).

not a personal attack, but its true.

“This country has been so prosperous for so long that many people have unfortunately have forgotten how we got here”

Through principles that should not be trampled on. There is a reason we have the Posse Comitatus Act and state sovereignty.

“In your posting you pointed out the exact points as to why Bush is trying to do this. And that is that unions don’t work /police /governemnt workers. As you said, the locoal and stategovernments did not do what they needed to do.”

I never said that. I didn’t even comment on the local governments response. I said the Federal government did not do what they needed to do. Just because they don’t assume control of the situation does not mean they can wash their hands of it. They cut back on funding for the levies that broke, they didn’t get supplies in quick enough, etc.

“Now all of these things are being threatened by people who aren’t all that familiar with these principles and can sit in their homes and such not having to worry about their safety because others step up to the bat. Unfortunately over time this may sufficiently erode our society as a whole and cause us to not beable to be so productive and defend ourselves.”

That is bullshit. What you are saying is there is only one way to protect ourselves and every one is blind to it. Could it be that there are better ways to prepare and protect ourselves? Could it be that not every solution has to employ brute force tactics or erode the delicate balance of our power structure to vest more power in one location? With your disdain for local governments ability to choose their own directions it might seem that you would be happy under a dictator as long as the peace was kept.

“Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves.”

“What you are suggesting is sort of like in the movie ‘The Incredibles’, where you and the whiners are the guy you tried to commit suicide jumping off the building, then Mr. Incredilbe jumped and saved him but broke his arm. Mr. Incredible like Bush, was trying to save the man from his own ignorance and despaired situation.”

This all assumes moral superiority which I doubt you or Mr. Bush has. Oh, I’m sorry, Mr. Incredible. No one can claim that and it is why we have a Democracy and politics because most people don’t agree on even basic things like what morality is.

And on your whining comment. I suppose all the fathers of the revolution up here in Boston were all whiners? You talk about knowing our history, perhaps you should learn some more. A basic principle of our democracy is there is always someone standing in opposition.

“So yes, Bush likes the military because they swear to uphold principles, they understand honor, and they do what they are told to do (not mindlessly, but because of their character and honor) he is more or less pointing out that the local and state goverments lack these attributes of devotion and commitment to their service.”

The military does not have a monopoly on honor and they are not infallible. Bush liked the military so much he avoided being deployed. Local and state government is filled with former military officers. The list goes on on why your statement is so laughable.

What you are suggesting is sort of like in the movie ‘The Incredibles’, where you and the whiners are the guy you tried to commit suicide jumping off the building, then Mr. Incredilbe jumped and saved him but broke his arm. Mr. Incredible like Bush, was trying to save the man from his own ignorance and despaired situation.

Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves.
This country has been so prosperous for so long that many people have unfortunately have forgotten how we got here, and that is through hard work, self respect, devotion to principles and having the family as the most basic unit of society. Now all of these things are being threatened by people who aren’t all that familiar with these principles and can sit in their homes and such not having to worry about their safety because others step up to the bat. Unfortunately over time this may sufficiently errode our society as a whole and cause us to not beable to be so productive and defend ourselves. I do believe in truth, I do beleive in right and wrong, and I do beleive that total freedom is chaos and that true freedom has ‘restrictions’ and laws that the society agrees are acceptable.

So yes, Bush likes the military because they swear to uphold principles, they understand honor, and they do what they are told to do (not mindlessly, but because of their character and honor) he is more or less pointing out that the local and state goverments lack these attributes of devotion and commitment to their service.

It is an illustrative example.

This does not prevent the Military from helping out in the case of Katerina. The act does not hinder the Military from helping out in a crisis but it does mean that it must be requested by congress or the local government. Local governments still have control on the ground.

What Bush is suggesting is that in certain situations like Katrina, the Defense department would automatically gain control on the ground. In my opinion this is a power grab from states to a the federal government and does not really do anything to help but its potential for abuse is huge.

Suggesting a coup was an extreme example that I even said is unlikely but it does seem that more and more these days we are getting closer to being a police state. Remember a huge job of our laws is to prevent possible threats to our democracy and even if that threat seems far off the issues need to be aired.

Pigfat do you have anything constructive to add? Or do you just cover your ears and tell people to shut up who you don’t agree with? Politics is for everyone of all walks of life.

or if you are interested in politics, perhaps you should research it first, before mouthing off, you obvisouly have no idea what you are talking about.

They are an organized and trained resource, and can mount a refugee camp and hospital in a few hours.

When Florence was flooded in the sixties some of the very first people to help were from the army (the Alpine troops, iirc), together with common people from all over italy.

We did not have people shooting each other, and surely we did not fear a coup d’etat.

But maybe I’m just more accustomed to seeing military men among the common people (the Carabiniers are one of the 2 principal police forces in italy, and they are a branch of the army… the most esteemed, also).

Besides… how could the army “declare a domestic disaster”, since that prerogative lies in the parliament (or government)?

If they needed only an excuse for a coup well, they could just do it. If you can not trust your army and institutions to this extent, you have bigger problems than hurricanes, really.