Sun 28 Aug 2005
Slashdot recently had an article on The Gimp signing up for evaluation at OpenUsability.org.
I have to be skeptical because Diana Fong, one of Red Hat’s Visual Designers filed a couple of usability bugs against The Gimp some months ago. The response she got in a private e-mail was less than courteous, basically belittling Diana and informing her to stop filing bugs. When I say belittling, I mean it was downright insulting and if Diana gives me the permission to post it I will. I don’t know if the person who sent the e-mail speaks for Gimp as a whole though they did come off that way.
If The Gimp as a project is serious about usability then I commend them. It is a complicated project with a long history. To step back and say let us focus on usability is a good step for any project. It doesn’t mean they have to take every usability suggestion and implement it but it also doesn’t mean it is right to be derogatory to someone who took time out of their day to file a bug. Hopefully they won’t be so brash with the folks over at OpenUsability.
[read this post in: ar de es fr it ja ko pt ru zh-CN ]
August 28th, 2005 at 5:49 pm
Please always inform bugmaster@gnome.org (private mailinglist) about abusive comments on b.g.o or about bugs via private mail.
August 29th, 2005 at 8:22 am
Some of the bug reports were duplicates of existing ones and it is always a little annoying if you have to spend your free time with closing duplicate bug reports. But you are completely right that it is in no way acceptable to reject or even insult a bug reporter.
Some of the bugs that Diana filed raised important questions and I would have loved to get some feedback from her. Unfortunately she didn’t get back to us and these bugs are still set to NEEDINFO. Now that I learn that she got insulted in private mail, I can understand that she doesn’t want to work with GIMP’s bug-tracker any longer and I am very sad about that. Another good opportunity lost.
August 29th, 2005 at 11:10 am
I will point this to her and ask her if she would like to start contributing again. An apology from the person in question would be nice.
August 29th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
I sent a private mail at that time, and asked Diana to join the IC channel because some of the bugs seemed to be duplicates of others, and I didn’t want her to waste time on stuff that was already reported. Not being a native speaker, I don’t consider the following to be insulting:
“Hi,
could you please join the IRC channel of GIMP? Your reports to the GNOME
Bugzilla are lacking important information and give us the impression
that you’re a bit uninformed about already reported stuff and the
current state of GIMP.
irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp
Michael”
August 29th, 2005 at 4:14 pm
Now it is certainly true that some of the responses in GIMP Bugzilla are too harsh. I’m convinced that things have been better recently, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t still room for improvement.
In this case, I think what happened is that Diana, by not understanding how Bugzilla actually functions, unintentionally did something that was a bit of a nuisance. She filed a half-dozen or so bug reports all at the same time, and all of them were either duplicates or else too vague to be useful without clarification. This created a situation where the bug reports that took her a few minutes to file took much longer than that for other people to get under control. So people got annoyed, and unfortunately not all of them handled it well.
(And no, the offending email did not come from me. Without knowing who it came from, it’s hard to see where to go with this.)
August 29th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Well, bugzilla is not GIMP.
This should be in a how easy are developers to use discussion in my opinion.
I tend to be gruffer with people who have redhat.com email addresses than with people who have other addresses. It is a company built on distributing stable and working linux installations, if i remember correctly. Are they still doing this? As a volunteer, I have some questions about how professionals are hired. The same bug reports would have been handled differently if they had started as questions on the gimp user list, which has been around much longer than bugzilla for gimp and it was designed for “new user usability issues”.
Since gimp usability is being confused with bugzilla usability, I will post the emails i sent.
First one:
To: dfong@redhat.com
Subject: gimp bug reports
hi,
can you cease filing bug reports.
thank you,
carol
No answer from this. My mind reeled with ideas about what is going on and I started to ask myself, what the heck is red hat doing? I waited a day and wrote this:
To: dfong@redhat.com
Subject: visual designers
hello,
i sent a terse message to you asking you to stop filing bug reports
against gimp. i also have plenty of how-to-use gimp on my web site:
http://carol.gimp.org/gimp2/
i am going to suggest that if you want photoshop or photoshop behavior
that you keep using it. if you need these things, then you should
probably pay them for it.
i use gimp because i could not afford the other software and there is a
good chance that it would not have run on the old junked computers i had
access to. i volunteer and promote using gimp to people who are like
this. this information is freely available to everyone, however.
right now, when i hear the title “visual designer” i think it is some
(usually girl, appearance-wise) who managed to trap some important
person or another in a compromising position. the fact that “visual
designers” rarely have actual skills or knowledge of computer graphics
but have employment in the field does NOTHING to stop this “visually
designed image”.
since i have freely shared my time and what i know about how to use a
computer to make graphics with, i was wondering if you could share the
image that you think awarded you this position with redhat.
you are using software that has been built by people whose only reward
is to know that it works. i would like to know exactly what it took to
get into a position with that company whose software i used years and
years ago with great success.
if you have any questions about how graphics are made with a computer,
please understand my frustration and give me a chance to answer.
i am a human being. i am not a dog. i am not a cat. i am not a
dolphin, nor am i a snail or a turtle or a cute little bunny. what are
you?
carol
August 29th, 2005 at 5:23 pm
I often tell people to post bugs myself as I can’t track the many lists I am on. Anyway Carol, the point is you can be gruff with a person without being derogatory.
This paragraph was what took the cake:
right now, when i hear the title “visual designer� i think it is some
(usually girl, appearance-wise) who managed to trap some important
person or another in a compromising position. the fact that “visual
designers� rarely have actual skills or knowledge of computer graphics
but have employment in the field does NOTHING to stop this “visually
designed image�.
As one of the people who got the ball rolling on GNOME-Women this is the type of talk that is simply unacceptable to me and surprises me even more that a woman in technology would say such a thing. I double checked on your website to make sure but excuse me if I am wrong.
To be sure, Diana has a graduate degree from Harvard Design school and if her bugzilla etiquette was not up to par then you should have addressed that instead of taking her design skills and gender into issue. Flaming is one thing, abuse quite another.
I am sure without this letter she would have learned fairly quickly when and what to post to bugzilla. I think a private apology is in order. It is up to you.
August 29th, 2005 at 6:38 pm
http://www.gimp.org/bugs/howtos/bugzilla.html
A girl I worked with wrote this. It is on the main gimp web site with several other tutorials and how to’s thoughtfully provided for new users. I was instrumental in putting it there.
I do not have a college degree. I think that the author of the how to does not have a degree either, but I do not know this for sure. Feel free to talk to me as if I am a member of the uneducated masses and explain things to me as you would a child.
As far as apologies go, perhaps Diana could compose an example of what I should have written to her to begin with. “Cease” is a word that is easily understood via previous experience or a dictionary. It does not say good or bad. I did not even use demanding words as I started the request with “Can” and phrased it as a question. Is this what I am to apologize for?
I am far more interested in understanding what bugzilla usability has to do with gimp usability?
Also, to progress the conversation, it would be easier if a Harvard Grad could help us uneducated twits by explaining which part of the “bugzilla how to” failed to make bugzilla more usable for her. There are several thousand Harvard grads, I guess — is it better to forget this one and get ready for the next one?
Do I apologize for a bad image that her chosen field has given me or do I apologize for expecting much better from Redhat?
Diana is using usability better than me, I give her that much. The usability of gimp seems to depend on her ability to use bugzilla — it is an interesting study, but I do not know what for ….. It would have been nice if she could have responded to the terse note. I am going to apologize for having a bad image of professional designers before encountering Diana and also apologize to Diana for her inability to change this image of mine.
Further, I would like to thank J5 for telling me good things about Diana in her stead. J5 is very usable by Diana. Usability is cool.
I would like to see if another Redhat visual designer could follow the how tos found on the web site to build gimp from cvs before I see if they can handle bugzilla.
Lets see how well other redhat email owners and perhaps even other Harvard Grads are able to read and use a HowTo? It might simply be a flaw in the documentation that the uneducated masses have provided…..
Also, I thought that asking to see her work was better than an apology. One thing that the developers do is share their photographs and work with each other. Not through bugzilla, but through chat and email and such.
I apologize for the fact that Diana did not write back.
August 29th, 2005 at 6:57 pm
I’m glad that my mail wasn’t the reason for this (though in the meantime I have been told that “uninformed” is harsher than I thought and doesn’t usually mean that *I* failed provide information to someone else).
However, I’d like to suggest two helful documents for someone planning to contribute and/or reporting bugs:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
- this helps you to ask the right questions, and doing so the right way
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
- reporting bugs in a useful way, including all the data that is needed to evaluate them
Especially for usability bugs, consider that there is a group of people who think the GIMP is usable in its current state, and be prepared to prove that your suggestions don’t make it harder to use for them
August 29th, 2005 at 8:09 pm
I would like to point out that Carol does not speak for the GIMP developers as a whole. Really, no one does. But I can say that I and most of the other GIMP developers bear Ms. Fong no ill will, and we encourage people to make usability suggestions. We do ask that you search for duplicates before filing a bug in bugzilla, and for usability issues that are more than trivial changes, it’s probably better to discuss them on the gimp-developer mailing list or the #gimp IRC channel first, if for no other reason than so both the person giving the suggestion and the developers are assured that all the important details have been communicated sucessfully.
August 29th, 2005 at 8:25 pm
Carol, wow, you are jaded and ill tempered. I’m not going to look at you as a reflection of the Gimp community. I respect everyone else I spoke to so far but you. They were all forthcoming on what Diana did wrong without being insulting or condescending. I’m sorry if you don’t think getting a degree shows that someone has some authority on a subject. Of course you twist my words to make it seem like I suggested you were somehow uneducated. I had no idea about your education level. In fact some of the most educated people I know didn’t get degrees. I myself worked for some time before I decided to finish up my degree so that us against them mentality doesn’t fly with me. And with that I leave you with:
Can you please stop posting to my blog? Thank you.
That is a retorical question and I don’t ever expect a reply.
August 29th, 2005 at 8:29 pm
Rockwalrus,
I realize this now. I know how fustrating bugzilla can be at times. I think you guys do a kickass job.
August 30th, 2005 at 4:29 pm
I’m totally unrelated to this argument and came here through planet.gnome.org. I don’t know any of the parties in question or what they work on specifically. Only through what was said on the planet and the comments here.
These arguments happen elsewhere as well which is why I feel the need to comment. The stance of you leaving and/or subjecting this person Carol to leave is extremist. Extemism doesn’t help anyone. I’m assuming both of you like and use the Gimp which is what this argument should boil down to. From what I can see its truly a petty argument and would do more to hurt each of your respective concerns regarding the Gimp as well.
This is a people issue. This person Carol made a statement and regardless of its seeming brashness. The validity in her concerns should be addressed. If this other party who submitted the info feels personally attacked she should respond herself. Take issue with the concern and then explain attitudes or expected behavior to the parties in question. New blood to a project doesn’t mean they shouldn’t make an effort to follow the rules of the project. No matter how talented or gifted they maybe. Veterans should nurture this process and if Carol is not the one, then maybe you should be.
There is certainly a more amicable solution than you just taking your ball home.
August 30th, 2005 at 6:22 pm
cwarner,
You missed the gist of the joke
and the gist of the argument which really has nothing to do about the gimp and more about how to be civilized. Like I said you can be gruf with a person without being derogitory. Once you cross that line don’t look for any sympathy from me. Also dfong has no obligations to respond to an abusive letter. She went on with her life, deciding not to contribute to the Gimp some months ago. I brought it up because it is one of the issues I find within may communities.
Everyone else was jumping in with the chance to apologize even though they had no need to and I respect them for that. The fact of the matter is the one person who needed to apologize instead decided to rant and go on to be even more abusive. The valididty of anyones concern is porpotional to their own level of conduct. I may be upset that someone ate my last twinkie in the company fridge but I don’t get to shoot them
p.s. Read Carol’s first letter and you will get the joke.
August 30th, 2005 at 7:00 pm
As a guy who does ‘visual design’ for some of the Red Hat APAC stuff, im kinda cut that carol could be so silly about all this.
The GIMP community have been nothing but helpful, supportive and inclusive in the past ( even carol if memory serves me ). Duplicate bugs are annoying especially if you have to close them . But flat out abuse is absurd
Could it be that a monkey has stolen access to all of Carol’s means of communication? or have we lost the sanity of a valuable member in the opensource community?
I’m hoping the latter is incorrect.
peace
August 31st, 2005 at 6:14 am
After reading Carol’s posts, I can certainly understand why Diana hasn’t followed up on the criticism. Carol, some lessons in how to deal with people in a welcoming and friendly manner would not go amiss. I’d be appalled to be treated in this way. Perhaps such responses would be suitable if the person concerned was a “repeat offender” on bugzilla.
August 31st, 2005 at 7:27 am
I am very tempted to comment on this, so I do just that.
It’s a shame how this looked like as if the actual developers where not willingly
to work with Diana. I have seen this pattern before, where a software user
thinks he/she is in the position of interfering with how and who is contributing
to a software package. Carols personal discomforts have ended up halting a
process within the development cycle. Obviously I can not begin to describe
how sad this is.
Carol, this is directly to you, types like you are community ruiners, YOU are a community ruiner, and this has nothing to do with degrees of education but
it has to do with personal social development, something you don’t learn at
any school.
I apologize for not being able to keep this to myself.
September 2nd, 2005 at 5:33 am
To Dennis (last comment), J5 and David Neary:
Carol has done quite a lot for the community. She has been in the past perceived as valuable member of it. If you have a look at carol.gimp.org you can easily figure out that she is carrying a some baggage from her childhood. Everybody today gets completly upset when we hear about child abuse and that is absolutly right. Why is it necessary to crucify sombody who encountered whatever bad during the childhood again 20 years later in public on a planet?
Yes, I agree that some action definitly needed to be taken but not this way. It is so obvious that she has personal difficulties. J5 and David: your social skills are not two cents further developed than Carol’s. And your humanity is absolutly zero. Your human-social coldness is devastating.
My personal thanks to Carol, like thousands of others I have profited a lot from your tutorials. My best wishes for you and your life.
Last thing - that’s what Miguel wrote on #gimp Sat Sep 04:
18:34 I have this retarded user called carol sending some pretty annoying and stupid emails to me my way
Dear Dennis this is directly to you: nobody stood up to say to Miguel “types like you are community ruiners, YOU are a community ruiner, and his has nothing to do with degrees of education but it has to do with personal social development, something you dont learn at any school.”, nobody pilloried him although he certainly too steped over the limits.
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:41 am
Please, there is nothing to be gained from a flamewar in this blog entry. Carol’s mails are always weird (including the ones that aren’t weird, which I perceive as “strangely normal”), and often at least ambiguous. Personally, I have no problems talking to Carol, and knowing her style helps to not take the things she throws at you too serious - on the first contact, you don’t know her, though.
But there’s something else I’d like to talk about. Because I wrote a mail to Diana as well, I was somewhat shocked when reading the following part:
“The response she got in a private e-mail was less than courteous, basically belittling Diana and informing her to stop filing bugs. When I say belittling, I mean it was downright insulting and if Diana gives me the permission to post it I will.”
This is something I don’t like at all, something of a “I do know what you don’t know.” If carol didn’t repost the mails here, we might still be guessing who sent that insult, or even what the insult had been.
Also, at the time Diana filed the bugs, someone else from Redhat was on #gimp. IIRC, he said that he had encouraged her to file the bugs, and apologized for not preparing this better - discussing this on the mailing list might have been a better approach. Now, I’m surprised that the insult wasn’t mentioned earlier.
September 2nd, 2005 at 1:58 pm
just me,
I feel bad for Carol, I do. She doesn’t need my pitty though if what you say is true she needs help. Just because she has been victimized does not mean she has the right to victimize others. It is called a cycle and it needs to be broken.
As I keep telling you I never outted her, she did that herself. I never mentioned her name before she did and had no prior knowledge of who she was. To say my humanity is somehow in question is to say that by letting these things slip we are somehow being compationate. What about all of the people Carol has abused? Do they get your compation? Or is it that you just want the world to pass without conflict, which can only happen by ignoring it.
If what you say is true then she needs help and not excuses.
September 3rd, 2005 at 2:56 pm
Hello J5,
I didn’t say that one shall “let these things slip”. The opposite is true: I said that definitly some kind of action needs to be taken - I really do have the same opinion as you in this point and in my humble opinion it is a good thing that you stepped forward to get a solution and to interrupt the circle of things.
What I felt so uncomfortable with is the *way* it happend. I know that it was David and not you to get the names on p.g.o. but I still feel that that was unacceptable. It is a question of a persons dignity and integrity. I doubt that it is a good thing to loose respect of anybody. Again in my humble opinion loosing respect is at least thoughtless if it is not self-righteous or a lack of humanity.